(If the Apostle Paul can use sarcasm, and I believe he does, I’ll give it a go myself.)
Of course, it goes without saying that program offerings, especially within the church, should be limited to people of similar age and stage of life and/or family status. After all:
- when God brought His people out of slavery in Egypt, He arranged their camp around the tabernacle demographically: teens in one section, with the college-age people right by them, families with young children in another area, and so on.
- a couple of times, I have lamented to someone close to my age that we were no longer eligible for all the fun stuff the youngers get to do, but not old enough for the 50 and up group. The answer? We need our own youth group! Because, of course, God sets the lonely in youth groups.
- finally, scripture is replete with exhortation to share what we have learned with our peers. Right? (It’s a bit of a joke around our household that the majority of the Titus 2 blogs are written by twenty-somethings. Correct me if I’m wrong.)
(end sarcasm.)
Now, allow me to say that I am newly convinced, with some reservations, that larger churches may need to conform to the public school model for Sunday School. And I realize there are probably two camps on this issue: one, those whose extended family members share both their beliefs AND their zip code, and the other, those who find themselves needing to form their own community.
But what is the reasoning behind all the segregation in programming? And how have you gone against the flow to create a more natural community in your own life?
While not a member of your faith community (so my perceptions are admittedly removed frm the fine points of your ministry), I think there is room for both. It’s not an either/or thing, it’s getting the mix right.
People feel comfortable relating to others in similar situations: other teens, other single parents, other converts, etc. They can share and learn from others with similar struggles.
AND a congregation needs to well, congregate. How else to build connection, tolerance and community, a community of all ages and stages of people? So I would be interested in a faith community with both kinds of programs. Is the mix of segregated and general programs working/ What would you change? If you could change ne thing now, what would it be?
These are questions I’d ask to help you frame a more desirable mix of programs.
Duchesse – I am really honored that you felt comfortable commenting. I believe you nailed it! I would change two things: one, groups would overall be smaller, leaving more “air space” for the quiet ones, and two, they would meet more frequently, weekly rather than bi-weekly or monthly. Oh, and three, I would change my attitude. Clearly, I am afraid of becoming marginalized, of not belonging. But I’m getting better. 🙂
I’ve been thinking about your comment about summer being better socially and I have to say that this year is much better for me than many years have been. It’s about the only time of year we get to talk to the neighbors at all.
We just stay together. We don’t go anywhere without our kids and they don’t go anywhere without us. Because of this we don’t currently do Sunday School. We tried for a few months (with a newborn in tow) but we were never comfortable with the kids off on their own. Now we just skip it, which is definitely easier on a Sunday morning for a family of 6-going-on-7. I know there are churches out there with family-centered Sunday School and worship (well, God-centered but family-integrated) but I have never seen one in action so I can’t comment on how it works out. I’d love to try it though.
As for the 20-something with the Titus 2 blogs- I really think it’s a yearning for learning with most of them. So many women in the generation or two prior to my own (I’m 31) gave up the home-life in favor of a career (whether they wanted to or not) and a lot was lost because of that. Well, in my generation too. But there are many of us who would love to learn from an older woman ANYTHING- how to relate to her husband, other than as another child or a sigh-inducing burden to be born; how to can tomato sauce or how to nurse a baby, but that knowledge isn’t there. The ladies in our church, whether they’re 70 or 50 or 40 have been working outside the home for their entire adult lives. Many of them still do.
As well, we’ve become so fragmented from each other. A family is in its little house or its little cars, running off to its programs and classes and jobs and they hardly have time to relate to one another let alone to their neighbors or “church ladies.” There’s no real sense of neighborhood or community, at least anywhere I have ever lived, and I’ve lived a lot of places. I don’t remember any of our neighbors past the age of 9 or so, when we moved out of military housing.
This is rambling. I do that. I know I am as guilty as the next person for not seeking out others in our church family to connect with. It’s so intimidating, almost as much as seeking out others OUTSIDE the church family. What’s a girl to do?
I will say that our last church had a lovely quilting program with about 6 ladies, ranging in age from 30-85. I learned quite a bit and just generally had a great time chatting with the ladies about things I didn’t understand and people I don’t know. I was the only one there not related to everyone else, but it was still nice.
Why do we have segregation? I think it’s just human nature to seek out people like us. It probably has to do with the size of churches too. If there aren’t enough people to segregate, you just don’t. I’m imagining that 100 years ago or more churches were smaller but I may be wrong.
We were anti-segregation for a while but have tried to be less bothered by it. We finally let our teen boys join the youth group about two years ago (they’re now 15 & 16). It’s turned out to be a good thing. A better thing would be becoming friends w/the other families of teens and doing things together that way… but everyone’s so busy these days, etc. etc.
I think sadly, programs are easier than relationships.
Outside the subject, my father (and therefore my parents) refused to attend any event where children were not invited/welcome.He also had a habit that made me gasp – visited friends without calling. Said either they were his friends and he was welcome or they weren’t. Wonder if this kind of thing still goes on much. It did in the 60’s when a fella I knew went to high school in Topeka.
He gave it up after moving away but lamented it.
Local church here had an effort where they went to play cards and or dominoes with men in a halfway house. All ages attended. I think you can get a better age spread with a charitable effort – people like to feel necessary – than you can with something like learning because, face it,
not everyone likes to even when they think they ought.
Tell me about it–I actually WORK for the Church of England, in a relatively high-level educational position for a historically important diocese.
I am EXACTLY the demographic nobody in the church wants: late 40s, never married, no kids, well educated. I fit NOPLACE in the vision of a parish church.
So, it’s cathedral for me.
Hey nice article did make me think for a while.
Btw, I really like your blog so I submitted it to Viralogy.com. That will help more people discover it! If you want you can claim your blog athttp://www.viralogy.com/blogs/my/12906 which will also help your ranking. Hope you get more traffic through that!
Anyway, I hope you have a great week and that you will be successful in every activity you engage in!
wow. Lindsey – I am so sorry you have had such a poor experience with women who work outside the home for pay.
I am a 40 yr old woman and I assure you of at least these things:
1. my children never had an OUNCE of baby formula
2. my husband and I are happily married, in love and have a great intimate life
3. our garden produce is all preserved for winter use
4. babies in my family get hand crocheted blankets made by me
5. christening gowns, too
6. we didn’t have a women’s bible study so I started one
and I work for pay (good pay, i could add)
my choices aren’t yours, but I am not worthless around the house.
I can admit, tho – I have no time or patience to blog. Guess that’s my failure.
on the church groups thing – we are segregated more by gender. which is a problem on it’s own.
our ladies groups are quite mature and lovely groups of ladies – but their meetings are very formal and they have well established ways of doing things that make it harder for younger ladies to feel integrated.
we have a single “adult” class of sunday school for anyone over confirmation age. it works for sunday morning.
I started a women’s bible study to separate study of the Word from the “work” of the women’s circles (quilting, heritage fair, ice cream social, etc). Circles meet monthly, study meets weekly.
Men’s groups are completely absent. They exist only as ad hoc groups pulled together to support the events planned by the circles.
we have a “JOY” group – Just Older Youth – that’s a social group of younger couples (in reality we’re 35-65) who do the annual fish fries and serve at the soup kitchen, etc – oh, and we do the annual church float for the town festival. It’s a fun group, but we only come together around events, we don’t have other meetings. We sponsored a “Fire Proof” based bible study this spring/summer with that group and it was fun, but hasn’t led to much additional mingling.
Well, where do you live, Dana? 😀 Honestly, everyone I have met in church or otherwise looks at me like I have 3 heads for breastfeeding (for close to 2 years or more) and educating my children myself. And being pregnant with my 5th puts me into a whole new category of crazy 🙂
It seems to me that men have a much easier time of getting together to do things. No one seems to view retired men any differently from those in their teens. They all just get together and eat or work without really thinking much about it. Maybe we women just think about things too much.
I had no intention of implying that working women are useless in the home, or that they don’t have good relationships, just that I have not had any luck getting help with the women I have encountered. My focus tends to be on a more old-fashioned way of doing things and most I know have abandoned that for convenience and new-fashioned. I have a dear friend who chose to give up her job outside the home when she had her second child (of 4) even though her husband does not make a good wage. Whenever trouble arrives, her family immediately falls back on the “get those kids in school where they belong and get yourself a job!” line. It is frustrating for her because she has made a conscientious decision to care for her family as her primary activity. Her family (blood or in-law) comprises about 60% of the church they attend so that makes it difficult for her to find help there.
I admit that I am a confident person and probably don’t ask for help as much as I should. Most of the time I find a book and teach myself what I want to know. I’m not sure what it is I’d like, except maybe to live in another century 🙂
And Jennifer made a good point- programs are easier than relationships. Additionally, my husband is entirely satisfied with the relationships in our family and has no real desire to get together with other people. That makes it more difficult to establish those relationships, and since we’re unwilling to get involved with age-segregated programs (because like Vildy’s father, we refuse to go anywhere that our whole family isn’t welcome), it’s our responsibility to engage with others outside of those programs.
For what it’s worth, I think our example of keeping our children with us during worship has had a good effect. There are almost never any children in the nursery and we have had many people comment on how much they appreciate us all being there. One woman even sits behind us because our kids (ages 2-8) are less distracting for her than many of the adults in the church!
Additionally (because I didn’t say nearly enough in the previous 2 posts) I think that I will make a concerted effort to look for those in our congregation who are outside the normal spheres of activity/programs. The childless (who may enjoy an afternoon with my crazy kids) and those in that in-between time of life (because middle-aged sounds kind of old). I haven’t previously given a lot of thought to those folks, because I always reckon they have their own stuff to do. I’m also going to try to listen more (never easy for me) and stop talking so much. Because I’ll bet most people have some good stuff to say.
My favorite church activity is a baby shower because there are women there of every age, from babes-in-arms to ladies-in-wheelchairs. Everyone has a chance to talk and ooh and ah over babies and their cute stuff. Hardly anyone can resist babies.
I live in Iowa – a bit of a hike from Alabama.
Lindsay, I think you have a great idea to seek out those that may be on the “outside”. Also, make friends with the new people in your church.. that’s what we did when we didn’t feel connected. They don’t have any friends either, right? 🙂
I’ve invited a widow in her 80’s over for lunch and that’s fun, doesn’t require an entire evening. I used to take my elderly neighbor grocery shopping.
Thankfully my husband has always considered hospitality a biblical mandate. We certainly don’t have people over often (which has to do with our season of life) but it’s important to us. Something we did when the kids were younger was a hymn-sing; we’d invite a couple families and I’d play the piano and take requests, and we’d sing together then eat snacks. Older folks without kids would enjoy it too.
Come to think of it, almost everyone appreciates an invitation, even just for dessert, no matter the age group.
There should be space for both segregated and unified activities – but I’ve never known a church (since I’ve been old enough to pay attention to such things, at least) that balanced this well.
For pre-adults, I have to say there’s value in giving kids a place where they can receive teaching “at their level,” and youth group (if done right) is a peer-oriented context that’s developmentally relevant. But these should fit into the church as a whole in some sort of intentional manner. Both the church family and individual nuclear families should be spending time together in unified worship.
(Aside: when I was growing up, there was always Sunday School and children’s church, but children also spent some portion of the Sunday morning service (and the entirety of the pm service) in the sanctuary with the grown-ups. At my current church, a kid who’s fully engaged in the kids/youth program won’t spend a Sunday morning in the regular service until he starts 9th grade – which is doubtless far too late, even though I know our kids ministry is unusually high-quality.)
Among adults, there’s also value in having a place for forming relationships with our peers – it just shouldn’t be the exclusive (nor the primary) way we relate to each other. Re: your suggestion that there might be two camps on the issue: since graduating from college (only 8 years ago…) I’ve twice moved across the country, alone, to places where I had no pre-existing roots, connections, or even acquaintances within hundreds of miles. Yes, I need a peer group – and so do people in other life stages.
But, at the same time, I absolutely want to build genuine relationships with people who aren’t just like me; unfortunately, I don’t see much evidence that the people in other life stages have the same desire. And I think a big reason for that is that the segregated structure has allowed/encouraged a culture to develop that over-emphasizes cocooning.
Again, the question is balance. If your mid-week Bible studies, for example, are going to be life-segment segregated, make sure your Sunday School classes and/or social activities aren’t. Also, the sort of ministries where we actually serve can be key – my church’s small group structure may be way more segregated than I’d like, but, hopefully, in the hospitality team, or the education committee, or the compassion ministry, I can serve alongside college students and young parents and retirees.
(Another aside: a few years ago, I observed that it was easier, as a mid-20s single professional, it was easier to be real friends with people 20 years or more my senior than with married people near my own age – because people in the latter group were in the early years of building their marriages/families, and thus need more intense support of people going through the same experiences, while those entering the empty nest years had more relational energy to go around, on the basis of having life more established [and less time-consuming children ;-)]. In the small group I belonged to at ages 24-27, I was the only person under 45, and it was a complete non-issue – it was a place of more genuine community than I’ve experienced almost anywhere.)
As for the “why” question – I definitely have ideas about that, but I’ll have to wait to find a way to express them that’s less shrill than I usually feel when I talk about it. Thanks for thinking about this – it’s definitely important!
For me, it’s less gender or age–its MARITAL STATUS that is the segregating factor.
Couples–especially, but not limited to church couples–seek out other COUPLES. It would be a total HORROR to have an odd number of people at a dinner party, for example. Goodness, what do all you married folk DO at dinner parties that you couldn’t have a single person be a part of it? Oh. Maybe don’t answer that, tmi. 🙂
But truly–does marriage and child-rearing narrow the focus of life so tightly that you no longer can talk about books, music, art, current events? And does it never broaden out again once the immediate pressures of small children have lifted? I’m 48 in three weeks’ time–I’m not finding that people close to my own age have gotten out of the Noah’s Ark mentality that everyone who isn’t going through life on a two-by-two basis is somehow a lesser form of the creation.
I don’t necessarily want more study opportunity (I already have a PhD in theology, and I teach it to ministry students, as well as do a weekly Bible study with colleagues, and do the reading for my own writing for publication). Plus working in a pressured job for the church, I don’t necessarily want more service opportunities, either. But I’d occasionally like a little wholesome Christian fellowship with people who aren’t directly part of my job. Sometimes, those of us who are not ordained but nonetheless minister, need some ministry sent in our direction.
@Wendy in England – I completely agree; the marriage thing is huge, and I’m extremely grateful for the handful of relationships I’ve been blessed with that have transcended that issue, because it’s not the norm. To be unmarried, especially never married, past the age of 22 or so (much less decades past it…) makes one persona non grata in most American churches. Sadly, it often starts at the top, as I’ve known very, very few pastors who’ve ever spent any time as a single adult. I don’t know what it’s like in Britain, but here, in most denominations and traditions, a minister seeking a pastoral role who makes it to the end of seminary without getting married is basically unemployable until s/he gets hitched.
It’s a complicated and loaded issue, but I think a big part of it is this: by segregating our official activities to such a great degree, we perpetuate a culture where the natural human tendency to gravitate to people who are Just Like Me is reinforced, rather than creating a place where that tendency is overcome in the name of love and unity in Christ – which is what the Church is supposed to be! So, of course, that culture is what informs our social activities. The subtext of the attitude seems to be, “You’re not Just Like Me, but surely that’s a temporary state, so there’s no harm in my ignoring you until you are.” And it makes me furious that we, collectively, would be sending that message to anyone.
Also – you’re right, those in ministry do need to be ministered to! Blessings to you.
Mella DP, I spent 45 years in the US and Canada prior to my move to England 3 years ago. Much of it unchurched, but a good chunk in churches, and even in seminary. In seminary, single people were fine alongside the married, and some good friendships were formed–with some serious age divides, and definitely across genders. I hope that bodes well for making the churches more open to the variety of ways that people live their lives.
I think the Episcopal Church is slightly–but only slightly–better at this than some other Protestant denominations. My Roman Catholic friends seem to have much less problem with singleness past 30, perhaps because of the presence of celibate priests and nuns. And because the Anglican traditions are heavily influenced by Catholicism, it may make the Anglican churches somewhat better at this.
In two good-sized Episcopal congregations I’ve been in (one in the Chicago diocese, and one in Delaware), I was in a very small minority of single women past 30. I have to pat myself on the back a little–I was a force to be reckoned with, and definitely gave a bit of a wake-up call that single people aren’t social lepers.
I think it’s good for children–especially young girls–to see that adults can live good productive lives and have a deep faith commitment without having been married. I taught college for a year in a part of the US where the age for first marriages was very low–and the divorce rate very high. It was also a fairly conservative Christian demographic. You wonder how much of that is cause-and-effect. I think kids need to see that not getting married, especially not getting married YOUNG, is no sign of failure as a human being.
Although–yesterday, I was at a reception given by the Archbishop at Lambeth Palace, and someone asked me, ‘Aren’t you sad the invitation was only to you and not to your partner as well?’ And I said that I don’t have a partner, I’m a stand-alone unit (which is mostly true–there is a gentleman in my life, but it’s very sub-official).
She said she was sorry to hear it! EEEK. Sorry that I’ve spent my life doing interesting things, gaining an education, and working and writing and teaching for the Church? Gee, sorry I’m such a waste of blood and organs, my dear sister in Christ….
THANK YOU for this post!
I’d finally clicked on the point that assuming age or stage-in-life utterly defines one’s interests is asinine — only to discover that others made this point in a more articulate way while I was ruminating, But I’m going to post it anyway because it’s reassuring to have company.
@Wendy in England – thanks for your comments on the Anglican/Catholic side of things – that’s consistent with my perception and observations, though it’s not my native tradition. And *yes, yes, yes* to the need to model and affirm commitment, devotion and godliness in the wide variety of life circumstances God might call us to (for a season or a lifetime). It’s always encouraging to find other women who feel the same way.
I recently had a surprising but encouraging meeting with my own Sr. pastor in which we wound up talking about these issues, and I was able to be frank about some of these realities, and for the first time actually felt heard. Fact is, as long as we perpetuate a culture that’s so alienating to [unmarried/divorced/childless/fill-in-the-blank-other-non-member-of-traditional-nuclear-family-with-2.5-kids], then we’re building a barrier against reaching all these people who form the majority of the population everywhere except inside church walls. Major problem, that.
All of this is one reason I love cathedrals–I attend my local one, which happens to be Canterbury.
Cathedral worship is the fastest-growing category in the Church of England. Without losing its integrity in carrying on past traditions for today, cathedrals have a very special ministry of welcome and instruction for all ages, and to people in ‘all sorts and conditions’ of life.
Because it’s been a hard year of a new and demanding job, and some health issues (I’ve been coping with Bell’s Palsy, and who wants to be sociable with a face that doesn’t work?), I haven’t taken advantage of all the social stuff the Cathedral offers. But it’s friendlier than most parish churches for those of us who aren’t ‘married with children’.
It’s a valid concern. For sure. I go to a very small church. We’re too small to segregate much. That solved that! 🙂
Wendy in England: “But truly–does marriage and child-rearing narrow the focus of life so tightly that you no longer can talk about books, music, art, current events?”
After The Kid was born, I lost whole years of popular culture. 🙂
Vildy, not even debating the relative merits of smurfs and cabbage patch kids? Really. How sad. 🙂
Well, Rebecca, looks like you really started something here. Good work!
BTW, come visit, anytime….
Thank you all for participating in this topic! I’ve been so reluctant to be negative that I’ve hesitated to talk about it, but it’s so helpful to see things from the point of view of others not exactly like myself. We just really need to get outside of ourselves more!
On the one hand, I think many of these problems are the result of things being done in a nonbiblical way. On the other hand, I don’t think things will ever be perfect in the church. If they were, we wouldn’t need God, just a human institution.
A couple of comments that were left on this post on facebook:
A lot of churches are ditching SS (including large churches, such as Mars Hill in Seattle) in favor of more age integrated neighborhood Bible study groups.
Our new church has a very interesting group called EYG (the elderly youth group). We are obviously a pretty small church so there aren’t that many of any age. Two nights a month the whole church (or pretty close) meets at 6 for dinner. Dinner is followed by a 30min. game (different each time) and then a service that is given by the youth pastor … Read Moreand geared toward youth, youth group band and younger music. The evening ends with table discussion in the fellowship hall with printed questions and you must sit at a table with mixed ages (they mix you if you don’t). The goal is to provide a youth group experience with input and insight for the youth from all age groups.